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RedBleach LeSanglant
Molon Labe.
RUST415
827
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Posted - 2015.05.29 07:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Dear players,
here we have the weirdest slot progression in all of DUST 514.
I tried once before, was washed away in a tidal wave of tears, but now we must once more unto the breach.
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Amarr Sidearm = Trade Equipment, Low Slot or both?
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Equipment normalized progression: 2/3/4 STD/ADV/PRO
High/Low normalized progression based on Minmatar: 4/6/8 STD/ADV/PRO
I am sitting on a community proposal as well, that I will factor in with your direct forum feedback.
H/L Slot Progression Proposal: Good. This form has been advocated for a long time.
EQ Progression: Original - nope. Modified with later posts of 3/3/4, better. Max/Max/Max - best.
A few points to address with this. EQ progression should be removed in my opinion.
1. Additional class/role/race bonus only accessible at ADV or Pro levels.
Must a scout work up to Proto to get their second slot for EQ? No. Neither should a logi.
Scouts have a second EQ that was created for the class in order to fit a cloak, and not be forced to fit a cloak OR something else. It was given to allow them to jump into their role, from the outset. It is not something that they must wait to use only at proto, that would make the Proto Scout the only real useful scout to use as it would be the only one to use a cloak and RE's or Uplinks, etc.
Is a heavy forced to wait until Proto level to finally equip their Heavy weapon? No. Neither should a logi wait.
Wouldn't this be a kick? That only the Proto level of Heavies could equip the Heavy weapons, and until then it was just light weapons. No, of course not. Leaving the draw of the class, even its utility, only accessible a the most expensive level in terms of ISK and in terms of grinding for SP seems obviously ridiculous that you would only finally fall into the role at the ultimate end of progression. Never having been able to fire a forge gun or HMG until it was too costly to have fun with.
It does sound like a bogus idea - and you are right - but this same idea was the basis for the Amarr Logi sidearm years ago. Only available at Proto. Fortunately the DEVS caught on that it was a failure as an idea that the draw of a particular suit would only be open at the last levels of play. They brought the sidearm to the STD and ADV levels of the logi realizing that keeping the draw of a class/role/race dropsuit until the proto level is dumb.
And here we have the discussion about the EQ count of the Logi. THE DRAW OF THE CLASS. The only reason to be a logi is the equipment. To bring pain or support. But the class should not be forced to wait until the proto level to be moderately useful (use all EQ slots). It should not need to wait for any leveling to achieve the use of its basic class identity assets.
Unless the Commando should also wait until proto before equipping a second light weapon... Yeah, I think not.
Equipment defines the class. Make it that way, Maxed from the start. All other suits have only progressed in H/L Module count - as the logi should. One reason I feel we haven't pushed on this more is that the idea of Slot flattening solved all these issues - but if we must talk lets get it all out there.
2. "EQ per logi" AKA "EQ and Amarr Sidearms"
We can't talk about one without talking about the other. So I will try to address both. For now put Amarr on the sidelines.
A logi is equipment. 4 EQ. It is draw of the class. The only reason. Sucky stats for EQ and the possibility to play a class that can help others and doesn't have to focus on being a slayer in the classic FPS twitch shooter fashion - which is why it is hard for many to understand. It should have 4 EQ.
Running with just one weapon is challenging and very limiting when faced with so many match variables. I play every logi as i have invested in each to try and advise others and analyze the benefits and defects of one logi to another. With only one weapon available make a logi ill prepared to fight most battles. At one moment I need a LR and at the next I need a MD and then a CR or a SCR. A sidearm with any LW combination immediately makes any battle situation more comfortable. and without it I am forced to stay further from combat, stay with a team or find other ways to support until my weapon is viable again. The price to be a logi is high, and it is paid.
Lower stats, 1 weapon limitation is good when FPS slaying is not on the table. It also ensures that a Logi cannot out perform an assault statwise.
That being said the Amarr Logi breaks that line in allowing for more combat situations while being gimped in terms of stats and equipment. Compared to an assault it sucks. In direct comparison to other logis it will under perform because it is limited equipment.
Like the Minmatar that does't follow the 5/3 slot layouts of the other H/L slot counts the Amarr doesn't follow the rule of 'no sidearms for logis'. But does it step on the toes of Assault players when it can't compete statwise? Is it just too close?
I don't see it. At least certainly not currently. When it costs a module and an EQ slot to be this way.
I think it is fine for the SideArm to cost 1EQ. It will still never outperform an Assault. It can't out perform a 4 EQ Logi. It can maintain medium Module parity while still offering variety. That said, No Class/Race/Role should be the King of Everything. If the AMARR Sidearm must go - so be it. Lets get balanced one way or another, and the logis be fully defined without an outlier. - It's like one Sentinel having a grenade slot and no EQ slot... or and Assault with 2EQ and no sidearm. IFF that could be a thing then Amarr is fine. If not, it needs to go.
3. Why 7?
Why not 9? Remember that Assaults were brought up to Logis in terms of H/L modules, not the other way around. Why not just have more? Especially if we are just throwing hopes around :)
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Molon Labe.
RUST415
830
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Posted - 2015.05.30 01:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:I think it is amusing to see how many people get bent out of shape because of the mere suggestion of Logistics losing the Light Weapon slot.
Personally, I think it is the best option for balancing the races as well as differentiating between dropsuit roles Either lose all weapons and go full on EVE style support, or leave the light weapon and retain some ability to legitimately defend oneself. Mid range stuff is just a way to create a less than viable set of suits and undermine the entire role. ooh! 2 Logis being able to outrep 5-6 player's combined firepower from most of the battlefield away! Let's do that one XD Yeah, that doesn't sound OP at all!! The Sidearm only is a nice middle ground between the two extremes of "I can do everything you can do, just better because I also have 3 additional equipment slots" and the "HA HA HA!! Just try to kill any of my teammates since my whole squad is dedicated Logi and we are repping them through everything you can throw at us (including Large Blasters)!!" I truly do not understand why people have such a problem with the role who is intended to be dedicated support being restricted to a Sidearm if any weapon. Another though occurs, reclass Logi Tools (Armor, Shield or potentially even Hybrid) as Equipment and a Sidearm (similar to how Proximity/Remote Explosives are Equipment but you spend SP on them through Weaponry rather than Dropsuit Upgrades) Simple. because a Sidearm is insufficient for suppression of the enemy. Since a logi is required to run out and use their needle, they need strong enough "Teeth" to make the enemies think twice about getting out of cover to engage them. Many FPSes with an Incapacitated-Revive dynamic equip the medic class or style with Light Machine Guns specifically for this reason (Focusing on a general support role as well), while DUST has no real equivalent, the closest being the "Assault Rifle" class of weapons. Additionally, an issue with specifically the Drop Uplinks, is that the logi needs to be able to defend them-self while separate from the squad while placing them, and also be able to defend their uplinks (and nanohives for that matter) once deployed (although this isn't as much of an issue given the expanded equipment count...and tbh the Drop Uplink always seemed like something a Scout Suit should have a bonus to).
^ Yep.
One of the 5R's of being a logi is Re-enforce. After battling the logi must survive to pick up team mates or hold them at bay until the ranks are refilled. Logis are not there to "kill better" but to have an equal chance is fair. Being a Logi is different from being a logibro. Logibro's are dedicated medic style players. A logi simply carries equipment. That may be for AV or tear mining. Using equipment is the role. Just as other classes have roles that they fill with the likes of Heavy Weapons or 2 light weapons, but in every class the weapons will function the same or better depending on the class.
Logis deserve to be equipment focused and be able to use light weapons at their base values like every other class.
Is it not enough that all the equipment slots must be filled? An added cost for the class overall that will forcibly reduce fitting capacity, regardless of CPU/PG changes. That means that even the logi that just wants to ka-pow-pow-in-the-facey-face every red dot still cant have a fitting that is on par with an Assault... ever. So, the player must choose lower stats and using equipment to carry out their operation of mayhem or choose a role that may be more suited to their play style.
Light weapons remain, and the only weapon for a Logi.
What many are speaking to here is the need for the Assault class to have a better bonus or further role definition. I agree that it needs attention. But this is not the thread for that. Bonus realignment comes after slot progression. This thread is for the slot progression of the logistics class. While comparing this class to others brings new ideas and insightful observations many expressions here lack... well its just trolling.
Unless we want to consider allowing them to use Heavy weapons? I'd be game for that too, hell let the scouts in on it as well, but the assaults only get to use rifles, fair enough?
Seriously, a sidearms as the only weapon for a logi is simply an overkill for the already poor stats of the logi.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Molon Labe.
RUST415
830
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Posted - 2015.05.30 01:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
To the Slot layout of the Caldari and what to do.
Rattati, you are correct that the The Cal Logi indeed suffers from an offense that has long been corrected. Over-corrected in fact. And I even have trouble building a survivable build without bricking it to hell. Poor stamina, poor shield stats, little armor stats and reps means that once it takes damage - if it survives - it is nearly out of the game. The time for repairs takes enough of a toll that it cannot be a front-line logi and stay with the team, it can't stand and deliver or even stand with its team mates. It sounds great that maybe it could drop its hives in pockets to help teammates and then run away... but in reality it becomes a prime target to extinguish and it can hardly sprint the distance to get behind cover.
My builds are often similar to the APEX builds, being shield intensive, and the 4th slot for either CPU, Armor, or another regulator.
As to what to do with it I see it as another logi with 4EQ. But with the hive bonus affecting all players they are rarely in short supply... so bonuses will be addressed at another time. Back on task.
The 4th EQ slot will bring it in line with the others but it still suffers; finding a logibro role and it being survivable is difficult. If you ultimately reach the decision that this logi should have a sidearm like the Amarr I don't believe that to be bad thing, but it also role bleeds a little - even though right now it sounds better simply because it needs something more. But what it maybe what it needs is just more of its role definition, and a 4th EQ puts it there. How that will work out will be fun to see, but I think it should still just be a regular logi with 5/3/4 and a LW and Grenade.
Bring it into balance...
Unless we balance the logi's to its 9 slots :)... but that may be asking too much. (and to many tears on the forums shorts out the servers)
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Molon Labe.
RUST415
837
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Posted - 2015.06.03 05:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Thoughts are ruminating again. CCP, you must make the decision for the sidearm on the AMARR and CAL Logis. You are the Refs, we are the players. Though we may have some good input, you will have to make the final call.
AMARR and CAL able to run AV support is Awesome. (sidearms and 3 EQ)
The CAL logi sucks in general, for many reasons covered elsewhere. It just lacks an effective way to survive. That 9th slot helps, but the suit is still painful to run. - so more sweeps on balance like this speed balance and eventual review of bonuses and stats will be great. Something to help it survive.
Still need all logis to start with 3EQ - even if that never changes for AMARR and CAL at the proto level.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
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